Episode 35: The Story of Triumphant Recovery From Narcissistic Abuse With Empath Raven Scott

Conversation

Episode 35 Season 3

Are you conscious of the slightest subtleties in others? Are you a lover of quiet downtime? Are you attuned to the details of your environment? Are you most at peace when there is no pressure? And are you deeply affected by nature, music, stories, food, and other forms of art? And have you also been this way for as long as you can?

If yes, then it's quite possible that you are a Natural Sensitive, like me, commonly referred to as a highly sensitive person. A Natural Sensitive is simply someone whose sensitivity is innate, healthy, and a gift to everyone it touches. Welcome to the Naturally Sensitive podcast, a show for the holistically minded, natural sensitive.

Here we talk all things sensitive and natural. My name is Jessi Michel Agadoni, and I am your naturally sensitive health guide and. My purpose in this lifetime is to help you cultivate a beautiful, rich life void of constant overwhelm, anxiety, depression, autoimmunity, or any other imbalance that could prevent you from having the impact I believe you are called to have on this world, my functional healthcare practice, me floor wellness, and my unique method teaches Natural Sensitives like you, how to build sustainable health by honoring their natural sensitivity. I created this space as a free resource to share what I've learned through my own life, and also had the honor of witnessing in the lives of my sensitive clients. I do this because I truly believe that if all Natural Sensitives have the support to live as their unique body's request, this world could be a much more beautiful and peaceful place.

So today we will take yet another step towards creating this healing reality together. Let's dive in.

Jessi: Hello, my sensitive friends and welcome back to It's so good to have you here. I have an incredible guest for you today. She is really an expert on the art of navigating life as an empath, and she has incredible experience with recovering and healing from a narcissistic relationship and all that comes with that.

She's an author, she's a speaker, she's a spiritual mentor, and she's someone that I'm really excited to bring on this podcast to talk about narcissism and, and that paired with empathy, uh, it's not something we've really discussed on this podcast yet, and I know. Especially in the last few years, it's really come forward as a big topic of discussion.

 Uh, we mentioned this a little bit in the conversation, but I, I personally believe that the term of narcissism has been used a little bit too broadly, and I've seen it happen time and time again where we just think anyone that was. You know, not who we wanted them to be. We just are labeling them as a narcissist.

 And there is a clinical definition for it that I think should be honored. And there's also the process of healing and, you know, coming through and realizing whether someone really is a narcissist or if there's perhaps just some emotional stunting or just an overall inability to meet you at your depth, um, or your.

Journey. So I am really excited to have Raven Scott on to discuss all of these topics and more her and I get in and really discuss some of the nitty gritty of what it's like to not only be an empaths. And to have experience with, you know, those that are either egotistical and or have the diagnosis or the clinical expression of narcissism.

And then even navigating relationships and codependency, we get into so much goodness here. So this is, I. A very rich podcast episode. I highly recommend taking notes. If you're that type of person or even listening back a few times, um, you'll really, really appreciate what Raven has to say. She has walked through the fire herself, a fellow six two in human design.

She had to send her first 30 ish years, uh, really going through the gamut like me, and now she is really stepping into the roof, onto the roof and sharing her objective and beautiful wise perspective. So I hope that you enjoy this as much as I did. Let's step in and get talking with Raven.

 Raven. It is so good to have you on the podcast. I am honestly, have been thinking about this conversation all week, so I'm really excited

Raven: to get rolling. Thank you for having me. It's so good to be

Jessi: here. Ugh. And we just discovered that we're both actually in California. I realized you were just up the road for me, so I love that.

I feel like we're on the same plane right now. The same sun is shining

Raven: on us. It is, it is. It's so nice. It's a bit dry and windy here. Up a little bit more north, but It's been so wet. Which we need the wet uhhuh, but it, it's like I'm looking at my yard.

We need to dry out and then have rain again dry out. Like stop just down pouring all this water on

Jessi: us. I know as poor Californians, we suffer. Our weather is, you know,

Raven: and we're not complaining, so I'm

Jessi: not gonna say no, we're not complaining, we're just being particular.

Raven: Yes. Just feeling the energies of what needs to happen. Yeah,

Jessi: exactly. Oh, Raven, so I have so many wonderful questions for you. You are such a woman of wisdom, and I wanna really glean from you what we can in this time.

So right off the bat, I want to have you kind of defined for us, since you are an expert in this area, both experientially and now even helping others, how do you define an empath and how do you define a

Raven: narcissist? Hmm. I love that question. Because everyone always just asks about the narcissists, but I think it's important to ask about the empath.

Mm-hmm. I think the, the empath, as you shared on my podcast, is highly sensitive people. And I think we all are empaths. I think we're all born empaths. And the empath is like a connection to our soul. Like it's a connection to the energies and to divine. And there can be an unhealthy balance of empathy just as there can be an unhealthy balance of ego.

And this is so funny that this is coming up and you asked me because, uh, yesterday I recorded an episode for a few weeks out for my podcast about narcissist and echo and Mm. Um, my podcast is called Empath and the Narcissist. So I was like, this is like the main theme of everything, right? So yeah, the empath is that who is highly sensitive, but if they're caught in this unhealthy.

Part of their empathy where they're absorbing everything. They're absorbing everyone's pain. They're trying to fix everything. They're, they're ignoring their trauma and not healing and transmuting it. Right? All the, things we all have to work on as humans. Right. I think that's why we're all empaths.

Then you, start to lose yourself, and that's exactly what happens when you're in a relationship with a narcissist, because a narcissist is the opposite. In a sense, they're also empaths right? They're also born empaths but their life path went a different direction. Maybe they weren't conditioned to be as caring and empathic to others.

Maybe they weren't even taught to be nice to others. This is all about just survival, almost like throwing them out to the wolves. Like there are some people who experience life like that and that can turn out to be the path where they take that over ego and a narcissist by definition, and N P D diagnosed is.

Overly exaggerated sense of self than ego, uh, grandiose mindset. They lack empathy for others. And they only, you look caveat, they only turn on the empathy when they want something. So it's a, it's a transactional exchange. It's not a true empathic, I care about you. I feel your soul. I see you, I want you to be happy.

And well, like an empath would do. They're like, oh, I need this, so let me turn on my empathy talent here. Mm-hmm. Because we all develop that. Mm-hmm. And they use it for their own selfish receiving. Yeah. So it's so good. Yeah. It's interesting. And I love that myth about narcissist and echo, about how, do you want me to kind of go into that?

Yeah, go into that a little bit. The narc, the term narcissist came from narcissist, uh, ancient Greek myth. And he was obsessed with himself and he was obsessed with his reflection. And he actually wasted away and died because he couldn't remove himself from looking at his reflection in the water. He couldn't even drink the water because he didn't wanna disturb the image.

Interesting. So it's like this interesting symbolism of just focusing solely on the self and like the outward appearance. Right. Versus really focusing on the inwardness. And which is also interesting parallel between the victim of a narcissist is that you're kind of doing the same thing. You're focusing on finding love outside yourself.

Mm-hmm. And the, the narcissist is really good at feeding that to you to kind of create a trauma bond. Mm-hmm. And then you're hooked and then you think that. Their act is really them. And you hold onto that false hope, which is echo. She fell in love with narcissist, and she, uh, just lost herself. She, and then when he died, because he was looking at his reflection and not drinking the water like Canadian, she wasted away as well.

And all that was left was her voice and her cursed her, right? She's called echo her, the goddess, her cursed her so that whatever, she could only say whatever someone said she could only echo. She had no words of herself, which is what happened to the empath who was trying, trying to fix and help and heal someone who doesn't want to be healed.

And just always, just like losing themselves and only echoing. And then especially with the tactics, with the narcissist, they gaslight you, meaning they start to turn. Blame and shame back on you if you try and hold them accountable. Mm-hmm. And it just becomes this spiral of, am I the narcissist? Right.

You're echoing everything that they're projecting onto you. And so this is why I love this myth, and it's really beautiful that I just recorded it yesterday and we're talking about it today on your podcast.

Jessi: That's amazing. I, oh my gosh, there's so much I could, we could talk about just from that. I find like the last thing you just said was really interesting to me about how EMPAs, can kind of echo back that mi and narcissist because the amount of times I've had my clients that are sensitive say, am I a narcissist?

I've had so many people tell me I'm selfish. Am I, am I, and I'm like, the very fact that you're asking. It shows that you're not, because a true clinical narcissist wouldn't even ask that question. No. In fact, they, they'd be so horrified by that question. They wouldn't even go there. You know? So it's, they would

Raven: blow up in your fascinating

Jessi: face.

Yeah, that too. They blow up in your face.

Raven: How dare you. They would gaslight you and you'd be like, I can't believe I'm dealing with this. B, you know, BS. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. You can't believe you've been saying this, blah, blah. You're the narc. You're always doing this. And they would find all these false evidences that they actually happen, but it, they're twisting that evidence in a, in a light where they're setting you up to think that you're a narcissist.

Yeah. So many projection, projection, projection. Oh

Jessi: yeah. So good. So maybe for empass that are listening, if you find yourself wondering if you're a narcissist based off someone else's, uh, labeling of you. Make sure that that relationship isn't co-dependent and that you're not in a relationship with a narcissist, because that could be what's actually going on.

Raven: Easier said than done for sure.

Jessi: One other thing that I find really interesting, cuz I've really, you know, on your, we had, for those listening, I got to go on Raven Show and it was so special. We had a great conversation. So I highly recommend you listen to that too. Um, but I shared that, you know, I have, uh, well actually a couple people in my life, but one, you know, in my immediate life that, um, others have labeled as a narcissist.

And I told you like I, I've come to the place now where I choose not to label them if they don't receive the label. So, but you know, there was that dynamic in our relationship and, uh, it's, it's so tricky.

Raven: It is. And to navigate the ego can do that too. Mm-hmm. You don't have to be a narcissist to. You know, shove off and skirt responsibility for your bad actions.

You can just be, I think we had, were joking, can I say cuss words in your Oh,

Jessi: 100%. Okay.

Raven: So we were joking, uh, in my podcast that, you know, like, why don't we just call 'em assholes? Like, my husband was like, you know, and back in the day we just call them assholes. Like they were not narcissists. This is like a new term and everyone's offended.

Like, you know, you could call someone an ask asshole, you're like, ah, whatever. Yeah, I am. But a narcissist. Everyone was super offended. I, I even was processing and made a mistake of calling out my parents as narcissistic. Mm-hmm. Actually, I called them actual narcissist. And this is, that was the 2022 phase of everyone calling.

Yes.

Jessi: Everyone a narcist, everyone a narcissist. Yeah, everyone's a narcissist

Raven: because we're trying to figure it out. We're trying to like process it and put the label on to help the healing. Um, but at that's part, just like anger is part of the process of healing, so is labeling and then as you become wiser and you really.

Process and analyze it, you're like, Hmm. I just think that they have limited emotional tools when, which definitely narcissists have too, but you know, it's just, you don't have to call everyone a narcissist. You can just say, wow. They really have limited tools. And I, I feel for them. I'm sorry. And actually, um, oh, I can't remember his name, so I was just listening.

I love The Daily Stoic by Ryan Holiday, and he was talking about, um, Marcus Aurelius. Mm-hmm. Pretty much journaling about how he was surrounded by idiots, you know, and he's always like being very meditative and very wise. And his grandfather wrote, uh, well adopt grandfather wrote an art, uh, uh, meditation about, it sounded very Buddhist to me too.

It was, you know, you just feel sorry for them that they don't have the tools. Mm-hmm. You know, you don't write them off, especially if you're a leader or. You know, have some type of, um, connection with them. Let's say they're your, they're your employees, or Hmm. You're coaching them or whatever it is. You don't write them off.

You just hold space and understand and feel sorry that they don't want to embrace the tools that are readily available to them. Yeah. They're so focused on their pain and trauma. Mm-hmm. They shove it away and they shove it away and they blame and they project and it's really all they're doing. They're just being a little toddler about dealing with their emotions and their trauma.

Yeah, absolutely.

Jessi: I've always thought about it. Not always. That's not true. Recently, in the last few years of just a lot of. Like you said, I, we talk about this a lot on the podcast, in that healing journey, like you go from one extreme to the other, right? In order to, especially if you are codependent, empathic, sensitive, you kind of have to go the other extreme just to get out of these relationships.

And you do, and you get, you experience the anger and the frustration and yes, you do tend to like over label perhaps and, and really get, you know, uh, intense about things. And that's, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just you have to remember that, that you're still in process. Like that's not the end game.

The end game is to swing the pendulum back and back, back and forth until you reach that middle of balance to where there is understanding for everyone in all of their journey. And I know for me and my parents, like I've come to realize that every generation goes a little bit further. Every generation has their healing length and they do have a stopping point.

You know, I'm gonna have a stopping point. And if I have children, they'll look at me and be like, why couldn't you go further? I'm like, dude, do you know how far I came from? Like, this is huge for

Raven: me. And when I'm, and that's the job of the next generation, is to criticize Yes. The others. So that exactly continues to evolve.

Yeah. And that's,

Jessi: that's just progress period. That's humanity. And I think it's hard. I can put myself as an empath in my parent's shoes and understand how that would be painful, because it is, it is critique, it is judgment. And for them to feel like I, this is the farthest I can go. How, how dare you ask me to go further?

You have no idea what I've been through. You know? But at the same time, like there needs to be that maturity of understanding that my child is meant to go further. And that's actually a blessing, you know? Yeah. Uh, so there is, there's a lot of like, Messiness that can occur in those relationships. You can.

That's, that's the hardest, the parent child is the toughest

Raven: for sure. I've personally had to come to that growth mindset. Mm-hmm. And just settling on, I'm a Virgo, I'm very perfectionist and I had a really beautiful, painful, yet beautiful conversation with my mother. And it was this, it was just this aha moment, like Every time I speak about trying to improve, I'm not asking her to improve, to be perfect, I'm just telling her what I need. Which is beyond her emotional tools that she's capable, which I think a lot of us can relate to in our generation. And I just realized, you know, I have to accept what is, I can't keep pushing her because when I'm pushing her and sharing with her what I need, I'm actually pushing her away.

because every single time I'm triggering her fears, I'm triggering her own self. Doubts, you know, which can turn into a reaction that a narcissist would do, like the ego defense. So I get how people so easily can label others a out of their reaction and their ego narcissist. Mm-hmm. It's very similar, but it's not true N P d unless it's turned against and it's hurting you and it's being abusive.

And I think also the term, like she's abusing me is highly overused as well last year. Like really taking responsibility and tuning in. Tuning into the tools. Tuning into what you, maybe what you're doing. Are you pushing the buttons all the time, you know? Mm-hmm. Take a step, take a step back and accept what is, and that was my biggest aha moment, thankfully.

Well, towards the end of the year. It took a while, but yeah.

Jessi: Yeah. Comes down to that. We all desire to control. And we just choose to use different tools as empass. We, we also can manipulate because we know exactly what everyone needs because that's our gifting. And so I, I really think like, no one really likes to hear this, but we're all manipulators at some level.

And so it's becoming aware of that and being honest with yourself and saying like, okay. and it's not always from a place of like, I wanna control them like, like a conscious, it's often the subconscious, right? Where you're just trying to protect yourself. You're scared. This is the safest way. It's also how you've been trained to be safe,

Raven: right?

Yeah. And then it was like meeting your needs. Mm-hmm. Also, there's this kind of message that, well, you need to speak up. I needed to share what you need to get what you want and mm-hmm. Okay. That's great. But you may be going, oh my gosh, there's another revelation from a guest on my show. Um, um, Her book is Mu is called Mother to Maiden, and I'm trying to remember her name.

Her Instagram is Mary of Magdalene, that's not her name. And she was saying, you keep going to this old rickety shack store. Mm-hmm. Right. To get what you need. You need love, you need compassion, you need time. Maybe. That was my big thing. I wanted more time mm-hmm. In my relationship with my parents. And they were always giving it to my sister and not me.

And I didn't understand it. And she's like, but you keep going to this old Rickey deal shack asking for compassion and time and love and you know, the store owner says it's been outta stock for a really long time. Like it's not here. And and she's like, and sometimes it never was. We never carried it.

Mm-hmm. But who's the crazy one continuing to go to that old Ricky Shack asking for that when it's never been there and it never will be. And that's when you just have to accept that. Find it, that's the key elsewhere, which really is finding it within yourself.

Jessi: Yeah, that's the key right there. Yeah.

Acceptance. Acceptance is like everything.

Raven: It's, oh my gosh. Yeah. It shifts everything.

Jessi: It really does. It really does. And, and it creates peace when it's genuine, you know? Uh, peace within yourself. You can just witness your parents. Then de from a place of healthy detachment, not disconnection, but healthy detachment.

And there's just, and that's also where forgiveness can roll in naturally. You know, unforced and, and you're right, like we do push our parents away, um, with our, you know, I, I know for me, I always joke that I didn't rebel as a child. I rebelled as an adult. Like I'm, I was the good girl. I was the nice girl.

I, you know, did everything my parents wanted. And then I went to college and started, um, uncovering what a healthy family should look like. I studied communications, persuasion, family, relationships, all that. And I was like, oh, hold up. This is not how, right. This is not how my family functions. And I went home and I told my parents, so I said, Hey, this is apparently how you're supposed to run a family.

Like, what happened? And they were not okay with that. And I, I, um, yeah. You know, for me it was very traumatic, the way they reacted. Yeah. But also if I flipped the script, how traumatic for them to be, like, we tried our best and now you're coming back and telling us some professors saying that we like failed.

You know, like,

Raven: yeah. And you know what? I think they probably already have that fear. I remember always my mom always saying like, I know I failed. I know I failed. It's like, Well, she already has that fear, like she's already beaten herself up about it. Yeah. And then to hear your child beat you up about it is like excruciating.

Oh man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. And this happens too, in romantic relationships. You're going to that person for something that you need to provide to yourself. And if you can't self sustain, you know, and find your love, your acceptance without that romantic partner in your life mm-hmm. Then that, I mean, that's part of your journey of recognizing, am I codependent on this person?

Mm-hmm. And my codependent on this relationship. When I finally discovered what codependency was years ago, my therapist said, Have you looked up the word codependent? And I was like, I'm not codependent. You know what you're talking about. How dare you? My ego was like, no, no, no, thank you. No, I dunno what you're talking about.

And I looked it up and I read the book she recommended and I was like, oh, I, I am. And it was only like with this one romantic relationship that I left with the narcissist. And then as the years progressed, I realized I was put appendant in all my relationships because I wasn't ever finding that security and love within myself.

Mm-hmm.

Jessi: Okay. I have to ask this question because this is something I've kind of like mold over in my head and I'd love your your thoughts on it as well. I have this feeling or this belief that empathy can be. I see it as a skill and also an innate gifting where I, the way I define empath, and I'm not saying this is, you know, the definition, but the way I've always defined it is that someone that's an empath is someone that's born where empathy is unconscious.

Like it's just there. You can't not give it, it's just, it just oozes out of you, uh, whether you're aware of it or not, where someone, um, where quote unquote a normal human that maybe isn't born with the gifting of empathy, it's a skillset that they can develop. So like, like you said, a narcissist can technically develop empathy, but they only use the skill when they want something.

Right. So, yeah. What do you think of that, that definition?

Raven: I like that definition. I mean, as I, I'm thinking through all the graphs that I've seen in a human design as you're asking that question. And I, and I see the potentiality for empathy in all the different places. Mm-hmm. And it just depends, you know, like, I've seen a graph that every single center was defined, and I was like, holy mother, DEHA, every single center defined good luck with that one.

Woo. And you know, and, and so you're like, oh, well that person's not empathetic at all. But I think you're right. It's like a human skill. Mm-hmm. To interact. And I think it's to survive, right? Yeah. Because if you aren't at least a little bit empathetic, you're not gonna be liked, people aren't gonna feel warm and fuzzy about you, and then they won't wanna feed you, they won't wanna be friends.

You get kicked out of the tribe, whatever it is. But I think it is definitely a developed survival mechanism. Yeah. But I also feel like world, like if I define empathy as a connection to divine source mm-hmm. Then I guess that means everybody is technically an empath, but what percentage of sensitivity are they?

Mm-hmm. Maybe the sensitivity is the part mm-hmm. Where there's that moving scale. Yeah, I like that. Yeah,

Jessi: it's so, I love playing with language and definitions and you know, so that's why I always like to talk about, okay, what is it like, what is, that, like empath mean to you?

Like, what does that term, because I feel like, especially nowadays, all of these therapeutic terms that we have, people have broadened them or narrowed them, and so it's always important to kind of clarify what, what everyone feels about things like. Yeah. I also just think it's fun to play with them and consider, you know, the meaning behind it, how it applies.

And especially for us as sensitives, you know, we. We are kind of a bit of an odd group. You know, we're, we're the aliens on the planet and so we see things a little differently and uh, I think sometimes that gives us a beautiful outside perspective, uh, but also it can make things a little confusing cuz of how we see it.

So I think our listeners need to hear your story of, Hmm. Kind of how you came into this realm of being kind of a voice for those that are navigating narcissist relationships, that have uncovered, that they're codependent, that they're, you know, they have this, uh, maybe overactive empathy and uh, and how to find health again within that, would you share your story with

Raven: us?

Absolutely. Yeah. I shared a bit of the story of like how I discovered that I was codependent and it was through therapy, so I definitely. To always recommend, you know, having speaking to a professional to kind of get that clarity and then you can do whatever path you want. You know, coaching with somebody, your self-discovery and all that.

But I like, just like you, I was a good girl. I was obedient. I was a straight A student. All the AP classes, I mean, I was smart, but mind you, it was also in a very, um, traditional evangelical Christian private school. So a lot of the curriculum was omitted. So that was my rebellion as I discovered at 18, about evolution.

And actually I was introduced to it by my ex, who ended up being narcissistic. And he definitely was a conditioned narcissist. Like his, he acted just like his dad did. He had mommy issues, like all this stuff. Mm-hmm. But you know, you don't see that on the outside right away because everyone puts on a really beautiful facade.

And so he introduced me to evolution and the stars and astronomy, and I was like, I've been lying to my whole life. And so I just shifted saviors, you know, the, the savior of Christianity was no longer something I could trust, and now I shifted saviors to this narcissist. Mm. And everything he said was I, I trusted because I was so grateful that he shared with me about the real world, you know?

And, um, yeah. So I just fell into that. We were together for 10 years and I kept pushing it. I kept trying to fix him. I kept trying to fix us. I kept pushing it. I kept pleasing him doing all the crazy things that he suggested that I do and I fix, which was always like very weird. Not like go to therapy or read a book.

It was like, um, you should buy some high heels. You should make sure your nails are always done. You should only eat salad. Like all these very controlling superficial vein things. Mm-hmm. Which I received because it admittedly, I was also vain and seeking approval outside of myself in the physical realm versus the spiritual realm.

And I was very spiritual throughout my childhood and high school. I was an awkward chaplain and worship leader that no one wanted to date.

Jessi: And then I, I'm familiar with that. Yes.

Raven: And then I was a total leader. I mean, even in my, uh, school, I mean, um, in my church that, so I had like school, church, and then I had church.

Church. Mm-hmm. And in my church, church I was put in a role with adults like, and I was still in a high school and it was really inappropriate cuz there was like weird chemistry going on with the other leader in the groups and stuff. And, but I was so mature and they're like, oh, who? She can do it. She's the leader.

Give it to her, give it to Raven. Yep. Been there. Yeah. So then I switched and I went completely vain and I was like, I'm gonna look the best and I'm gonna be successful on the outside. Get a career. In incorporate, like right at the right page of 1920, I couldn't even drink. Right. I wasn't technically old enough to be part of all the crowds with, again, all the older adults.

Mm-hmm. But I felt successful. And so all those solutions that were so superficial that the narcissist could control in my life, I myself take responsibility that I accepted those. I was like, yeah, that sounds like the right solution. You'll love me more if I do that. And I just got deeper and deeper in the rabbit hole.

I always call it the dark vortex of his control. And he actually grew deeper and deeper, like darker and darker. And I tried to move out. I would pack a bag, I did it seven times, pack a bag, move out because of a horrible argument cuz I was fed up with his always blaming me and my intuition would kicking and, and say, this is not right.

You should, why are you here? You should go leave. You know? And I had friends that would tell me that the way he was treating me wasn't right. I just couldn't pull myself out because I was so co-dependent and trauma bonded, you know, until my seventh, I think it was my eighth attempt. And I knew after this one argument, I had this aha moment trip.

And I came back and I immediately told him how much fun I had. Like what a joy it was. I was just expressing my emotion and he didn't hear one bit and immediately he just went in on how horrible those people are and da da da dun. They're so this and dirty judgey judgey. Mm-hmm. And I was like, you, I don't even care.

I'm not even talking to, I don't, I'm not trying to sell you on them. I'm just sharing with you how I had a great time. And so I knew right there, I was like, boom, wake up moment. He's never gonna listen or like care about how I feel ever, ever. And I had forced him to move in together, thought that would fix it.

I had, you know, I say forced because I kind of gave him ultimatums, like mm-hmm. I'm leaving. I'm not gonna be with you anymore. If we don't move in. Thought that would fix it. You know, if, and now it's like, get married, thought that would fix it. Thank God I didn't take the next step and be locked in with him for forever.

Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it was, it's been such a healing journey and you can hear in my language, I'm taking responsibility for my part. Mm-hmm. I'm not the victim anymore. Um, but this just is what it is, right? We just get ourselves stuck in this, this vortex and this trap based on what we think is normal, how we were loved, or what the, the narrative was in our head as children, right?

Mm-hmm. The conditioning of, especially in a very strict religion, do this, you know, you're already broken. You were born broken sinner, do this and you'll be saved, do this and that. It's like always very conditional. Mm-hmm. So that kind of narcissistic conditioning was like, oh yeah, that makes sense.

Totally. Like that's it. That's just like, How Jesus was told, told me to do this. Technically not the real. Jesus would be turning over in his grave hearing all the things that they say in church about what he talking about. I always call it

Jessi: Christian culture, is how I come to define it. Cause I'm like, this isn't even what was originally.

Yeah. Christian culture is really culty and powerful and it's

Raven: what, it's, it's amazingly crazy how similar it is to, um, uh, Islam, right? Mm-hmm. Cause it all came from the same region. So it's like just taking a look at the different religious organizations, you're like, ah, it all came from a pure good place.

Right? This, I call him a, um, ascended master. Jesus was an activist and it just kind of was taken by certain people and written and then rewritten and formed into whatever system they wanted. And yeah, I, it just shows that all of us. We're trying to get some agenda. Right. Especially the power. We all have an agenda of what we're trying to get out of life.

Get out of a relationship. I had to sign a lease. Like I had to get something legal Hmm. In place for me to get out because after this big argument, I saw like physically saw this gray mist in my bedroom and I could, I closed my eyes and I could see that dark black vortex.

Like, it was so clear to me. Wow. It's like that was my awakening moment. I was like, I am like spiritually woke now. I don't even know what that means. I just know I see this and I need to get out and yeah. So I, I had to sign a lease to hold myself accountable to stay out.

Jessi: Yeah, that makes sense. And especially as nice girls that follow roles, and it's helpful to have something because that is one benefit of being co-dependent, is that you're very responsible.

So if you, you use that to your benefit of like, I'm gonna be responsible to this person now, so I can't back out. That's, that's brilliant. Yes.

Raven: Yes. Yeah. All the other times didn't work and he ignored me. It's not like he chased me, but I felt lost without him. Yeah. I felt like something was missing in my life and it only took like a day or two and I would reach out and he would, you know, convince me that everything was all right.

If you just do this, we'll be fine. Da da da da da. Yeah. So what was

Jessi: that like separating from him and how long did it take for you to. Uh, I know healing's a journey, but that, that big original kind of wound and connection, how long did it take to fully kind of cut that cord and

Raven: recover? Oh gosh, yeah, probably 10 or nine years.

Uh, and writing my book really helped. After those nine years, I, I did so much that throughout that time I went to therapy, I started a therapeutic like horse business, which was horrible. Like as far as money and body issues, like it totally broke me down, but it was very therapeutic to be in nature and with the horses, um, all of the different things.

I started listening to, um, Dr. Joe Dispenza, Gabby Bernstein, um, Jen Sinero. I just started listening to books cuz then recently thereafter, um, you know, I actually did the horse business with my husband. I met him a few weeks later and it was just such a. Miraculously like connection. It was divine and there was still so much healing.

I had to do that. It was a bumpy road in our relationship. Mm-hmm. Because I was so triggered all the time. I had P T S D and I would just break down and have these crazy just episodes, um, things, you know, watching movies, all smells, sounds, driving through that old neighborhood. It just really set me off.

And so there's, there's all that, that I had to heal from a process. And yeah, it took me down this spiritual path of non-religion, spiritual path of finding ways and modality, somatic healings and meditations and all the things, the visualization, the E f t tapping to heal. Mm-hmm. And then I, I wrote my book and it seemed to really like open up this door that I could really find peace and forgiveness and healing.

And then now being able to speak about it, you know, having, starting a podcast and I really didn't fully embrace speaking about it until last April. I avoided it. Even though I wrote my book, I was like, oh, I'm just gonna talk about intuition. No. And the universe is like, no, that's not why you're here.

You're supposed to be helping bring back sparkle to those who, who have been hurt by narcissism, which is a lot of us. And even just toxic people and their egos that kind of manifest as narcissistic. Yeah. So, yeah, it's been a journey. Mm-hmm. A really winding journey. But it's also been beautiful.

Jessi: Yeah, it sounds like it.

It's, but isn't that the joy though, of having, having gone through something really hard to be able to, on the flip side, give that healing as a gift, you know, and to not have it mean nothing. To not have it. Just be this, well, that happened, now I'm moving forward, I guess, you know, but to actually realize there was purpose in that, you know, because alongside that, I hear you were whether we loved the environment that it happened in.

You were curated as a leader. You were curated as someone that could, you know, present yourself, that could be in front of people, and then you were given this experience, you know, or you could even say you chose that experience, you know? And right as you, as you move through it now, you get to use all those skill sets to then share and to present and to offer it and, uh, to use, like obviously language in words are a gift for you if you are a writer and a speaker, right?

So to be able to process for that amount of time and then to verbalize it, to write it out, is so powerful. And also healing. I, I totally agree with you that. There's one, it's one thing to kind of heal and process in your mind and in the quiet of your life, and it's another level and layer to then go public.

Raven: Yeah. It was a process. I had three different versions of the book. It took me like three years because you know, she told my sister about it and she told my mother, and then my mom called crying like, how could you air our dirty laundry? Huh? I was like, all of her triggers and yeah, it was really hurt and I was like, oh, I guess I won't write it.

And then I just felt this such compulsion to not hold back and to write it. And it's so beautiful how, I mean, I was like, if I just can touch one person with this book Yeah. Then that's, that's the goal. That's it. And I've, I've had so many reach out to me, like while reading it saying, I was reading your book and I felt so empowered.

And one of 'em just the other day said, and then like that same moment, I was served by my acts and you know, it was. There's, it was just, it's almost like, like a net, like it's been a net for people to catch them as they're falling through these really difficult times. So it's really fulfilling and beautiful to hear that feedback and to know Yeah.

That my pain, like you said, is shining bright now like a diamond. Mm-hmm. Helping others.

Jessi: Absolutely. I just got chills.

Raven: My inclination cross is dominion, so it took me a quite a few years to figure out what that meant. I was like, okay, so dominion, that's, uh, Bernie Sanders has dominion and I don't know why I keep going back to that, but there was another, um, classical, um, um, what is it called when you're con um, not a writer.

Composer. Composer, composer. Mm-hmm. But he actually ended up organizing like the library of classical music and Wow. I was like, okay, what do I do with this? What does that mean? You've got a politician, you've got a musician. And then my north nodes in Gemini. And I was like, mm-hmm. What does that mean? You know?

It was like, which is all about words, like you said, like the talent of words. Mm-hmm. And so that's why I fully embraced being an author. I fully embraced being a podcaster, which I never in a cajillion years thought that that's actually career that you can do that. And I, you know, I just, I have my bachelor's in arts, And I did interior design. I felt like you have to tactally do something and Yeah. And even to this day, my mom has like, she doesn't understand what I do. She's like, I don't know how you're doing that, but Okay.

Jessi: I feel like that's so common. Yeah. Yeah. My mom, my, my sweet parents are like, yeah, we don't know our daughter.

We don't even know who she is anymore.

Raven: You know, at the internet and the Asian, of course there's got all these. Different careers that they can't even fathom. Like I don't know what you're doing. Yeah. Which

Jessi: is kind of cool and exciting. Yeah. So wait, so tell us your human design real quick, cuz you've been, uh, referencing

Raven: that.

Yeah. So my type is generator, author is pure, I'm a six two. Mm-hmm. So I've got the role model leader, right. I was born and it's in my graph that I'm a leader. Two is the hermit. So I'm always retreating to write something or plan something. This is funny, I, I always feel guilty about like doing really good at going live, like right to be there for my community.

And then I retreat and I don't, and I'm like, oh, I should go live. No, I don't feel like it. I'm just gonna hermit, I'm just gonna work on my book. I'm just gonna do this. And, but that's, that's it. That's part of my design is preparing and mastering what I can bring to them when I come. So yeah, I can

Jessi: fully relate to that.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Fellow six two and. Interesting. And I'm like envisioning your chart. What are your defined

Raven: centers? all except for the root solar plexus and Will. Okay. Yeah.

Jessi: Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. So you're really sensitive to

Raven: Pressure sets me up since of, they really sets me up for being scammed, which narc you.

Well you've got the

Jessi: pressure that's Sure. You've got that open identity urgency. Oh, open ego.

Raven: yeah, the. Open ego. I love to always reference the ego as the will. Like Mm. Anyone can sell me something, someone can sell me ice. But I have a whole thing of ice. Cause I feel like I need to like buy ice from you.

Oh, you're right. I need it. Their agenda. Horrible. Oh my gosh. Horrible.

Jessi: Yeah. Yeah. And of course the open solar plexus, you're very open solar plexus sensitive

Raven: to emotions. Yeah, I am. And I was always labeled the one who exploded. Like I had the temper tantrums as a child because I was amplifying, like let's say we were all getting frustrated playing something when I was seven.

Mm-hmm. Or whatever conflict or you know, I don't, you don't remember what happens when you're seven. Exactly. But I just remember being in a circle with my friends and then everyone on the block would hear the upset and it was from me. And then I would get sent to my room cuz that's not appropriate.

Mm-hmm. And I, I didn't really know how to manage that. I was just amplifying, yeah. The frustration with my voice. Which is defined.

Jessi: Yeah. And being, uh, you know, a natural or a highly sensitive person, plus having an open solar plexus that's like really intense. Yeah. Because yeah, you're, you just are picking up on everyone's emotions and then where do you put that if you don't know how to, as kids, we don't have boundaries.

We don't know how to manage that. We don't know, you know, the separation we see ourselves all merged. Right. And that's beautiful, but also really hard at the same time.

Raven: Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think my open root had that. Hmm. The whatever it was part of the recipe of that too. Right. Yeah. I sure to like figure out the solution.

Right. I see it

Jessi: in you too, cuz I have an open route as well, and I have like a ton of defined gates. It's really interesting. I have a ton of defined gates in my open route, but it's open at the same time. Mm-hmm. So I really think it highlights and enhances the pressure. Um, but I, I hear in you a lot of similarities of my own journey of just like rising to leadership, always being treated as an adult even when you shouldn't have been.

And feeling the pressure of everyone being like, oh, we know that if you just give it attention, you'll be good at this. So can you just take this over please. But we don't have the, the ability to sustain that, you know, so we would burn out and all that. At least you had a sacral goodness. Yeah.

Raven: I'm jealous of that.

I, I know burnout takes a little longer for me with my say, but I was talking but silly to my, my, um, social media manager who's helping. All the stuff, even beyond social media. And he's like, you need to post once a day, not twice a day or three times a day, because you're gonna burn out. And he's a projector.

So I'm like, anything you say, I will take it. I will listen and probably take your advice. Yeah.

Jessi: Good,

Raven: good. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. It just is. Oh, I just, it's always something I've had. I'm still, every day I, meditation I swear, is what really has helped me with my open route because I'm able to just calm down and breathe and be like, it's not all gonna get done.

Hmm. And it's like that pressure to get that task done also. And I have children, so as I'm doing a task, especially editing a podcast, they're asking for food in this. Mm-hmm. And it's been a real exercise to just breathe. And like put the mouse down and go get the snack. Like it's gonna be here when you come back.

Like that open route really sucks sometimes. Yeah, I

Jessi: hear that. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, I think, have you gotten into Jean Keys? I feel like you probably have a little bit.

Raven: I haven't Jean Case. No, I ha I mean I know Jean Case. Yeah. But I haven't dived deep into the Jean Case. Oh,

Jessi: I wanna encourage you to do it.

You'll probably get obsessed with it. Um, I found what's really helpful with understanding my gates right, is that's what Jean Keith really is about, is the different, um, the different lines. So I find it, well, not just alliance, but the gates and the lines, but when I was looking at my open route, really understanding the different gates in there and what they stood for, not just from a human design perspective, but from a gene Keith's perspective.

It really helped me to kind of deepen my understanding of, wow, this is, you know, my world as health. So this is so huge. This is how, this is how I'm ruining my body. Maybe ruining is a strong word. This is how I am, you know, running myself into the ground day after day after day. Like, it's here. This is where it is.

Yeah. Um, and so really, It's so important to honor, you know, the need for rest. And I know even just this week I, my husband's gone on a trip and I've actually let myself sleep in really late. I've just been kind of what I would have termed moving laly before. I'm now like, no, I'm just kind of cruising. I'm normally not a cruiser.

I'm kind of an intense person. So it's like just it's, but it's been from a place of reflection of like, what happens if I just like rest more? What happens if I just, it's not even that I'm not doing things or I'm not moving, but I'm doing it from a place of rest and a lack of rush, like as if I have.

Like so much time. I have more time than I need to get these tasks done. The manner in which I do them is so different and it feels, I almost feel foreign. Like it's this weird sensation where I, I can sense part of me that's like, haha, speed it up, you know? Come on, do more. You didn't do enough. And then this other side that's like an experimental, this is interesting.

I feel really good. I wonder what would happen if I kept doing this. Would everything fall down? Would things not work out? Would money dry up? Would whatever, you know, all the, the primal fears that roll in and everything I've been learning about Jin Keys and human design when it comes to the root is that it just, it's turned into this kind of mantra statement of the more I rest, the healthier I become and the more like abundant my life is.

And it's like this right now, it's a theory that I'm playing with. And it'll eventually turn into a belief and then eventually into a reality. Right. But yeah, it's tough when you have that open route to really lean into that. Some people just, they're like, yeah, just take a nap. I'm like, you don't understand it.

Raven: It's so hard for me. Mine is racing. How can I take a nap? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of, I dunno if you've seen the Hamilton play, but it's like him writing profusely in Hamilton. Mm-hmm. All of those, bills for mm-hmm. The Constitution. He wrote like, I don't know, did he write 50 or plus he wrote like 80% of them.

Amazing. Like he must have had it open

Jessi: roots. Yeah. Going for it, driver. Yeah.

Raven: So sometimes if I do feel like I need to get something done, that also encourages me. Like I'm doing it with a purpose. I'm not just like burning myself out. So there's that positive and negative to it. Yeah. Ugh.

Jessi: So kind of getting back to empathy, what are some of the giftings like, let's talk about the positives that you've really started to nurture and honor and own now that you've kind of come out of being like, oh no, I'm codependent.

I'm an empass. It almost like a negative thing, and then healing and releasing and coming into a place of more balance of like, this is actually a gift. Like what does that look like for you being in that state?

Raven: Yeah, and honestly, this didn't really open up for me until I saw my chart and I knew exactly where my open doors were and exactly where my quote unquote, Weaknesses or failures.

Right. Every time I was sold into to sell something in an mlm, I always felt like a failure cause I couldn't sell it. I was like, oh, actually it's okay. That's my open listener. And I just had the back door swung wide open and they just can't came on in. And I was like, yeah, sure. Come on, I'll do that for you over, you knows, now I, I can still shine my light with the screen door closed.

Mm-hmm. Or if I need to lock it, you know, close that door and lock it because I'm dealing with a narcissist. Like lock it, lock it. Who cares what they think, who cares what their reaction is. Pretty much the epiphany of don't give a shit was how I got over my unhealthy empathy. Mm. To be able to apply my empathy to those who really needed it.

Right. Especially like my children and my husband, myself. Right. My self compassion and then I have the capacity. To help others who are reaching out to me in my coaching sessions. You know, those who I read for. Um, but yeah, the, the boundaries, it's such a cliche. 2022 was huge talking about boundaries, but let's call it not a boundary, but the screen door or the back door closing that.

Mm-hmm. And those specific particular areas as an empath is key to be able to shine your light out. You can't shine it if it's like just dimming. Dimming, because everyone's taking that energy. Yeah. You finally

Jessi: have a full bucket to

Raven: give. Yeah. And it has to be for the right people. And you can't, like, if there are people, here's my, also my biggest lesson is an empath.

If there are people constantly needing you and you get a little bit of a boost, like, oh, they need me and I can help them. That is another part of your ego tapping into the unhealthy empathy and you step into these roles. They're not meant for you. You can be kind and hold space and say, I am here for you as a friend, but I can't, I, I'm really busy with my family, my work, I can't field calls from you every single day or every single weekend.

Mm-hmm. And if you do need help from that, like find a number they can call, maybe they need a hotline, maybe they need a therapist. Like just refer them to someone who can aptly hold that role for them. I think as empaths we take on all these roles that aren't ours, thinking that we can do it, cuz you probably can.

But at what cost? I know what cost. And usually when I do that, the cost is my energy. Mm-hmm. My anxiety, like the, the, if they call and my stomach drops, like, you know that you've overextended your empathy when your stomach drops or you feel, um, obligated. To talk to them. Mm-hmm. You've, your roles have been meshed and the boundaries have been crossed, and that's been overstepped.

So, yeah. Um, just tuning into holding those boundaries and, and usually I'll, I'll lose them as a friend because I've presented to something them, like, I'm here for you. I'm gonna do this for you. And then I do it for a while, and then I'm like, oh, I can't do it now. Like, this is too much. And then they're like, well, this was my expectation of you, and since now you're not doing it.

You're a bad person and I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. And then I lose them totally as a friend and they actually feel like they're losing me as a friend because I'm putting boundaries up, but they're just all or nothing kind of a situation. And it's really toxic, and I think it's gonna, yeah. It's gonna be an interesting observation throughout this year, that being the main theme is like, how do we interact in our relationships and what roles are we taking on?

Mm.

Jessi: So good. Yes. There's so many gold nuggets and everything you just said. I'm like sitting back, you're going, amen.

Raven: You write a whole book on bridge.

Jessi: Ah. And I think that's like, gosh, even when I've been, I've now been going on podcasts and a lot of the questions I've been getting are about like, how do you create that inner circle?

How do you hold that? How do you, because as sensitive souls, like our deepest desire is to love on people, is to care for people, is to, to, and even deeper than that is to save people from experiencing the pain we've experienced. Right. That's really the core. And uh, I know for myself, that's,

Raven: but that's not our job.

That's not our job. Our souls all pick some type of struggle. Mm. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's their struggle. It's their, you could say it's their problem, but it's really their struggle. They chose Yes. You can't save them from their struggle. And

Jessi: that's the perspective that is new to me that I've taken on last year of just like, okay, what is free will truly, and I now, I'm like, I think this started before we even came onto this planet.

And if that's true, we chose our parents, we chose our life. Like that is a part of the journey. And whether it's conscious, are unconscious, trying to rescue is actually like the worst thing you could possibly do. Like you're trauma

Raven: and it's a sabotaging response. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're sabotaging. Yeah. It's, it is actually a trauma response.

It's unconscious. Yeah. And so again, going back to mindfulness awareness, meditation will help you see your patterns. You'll be like, Ooh, I'm sa, I'm trying to say it again. It's okay to be kind. It's okay to not give up hope on them, but step into a role that shouldn't be yours. That's the biggest thing, right?

You're not a therapist. Have you gone, you know, have you gone through like I was, so I'm really wise, but have I gone through an actually professional therapist? No. So therefore this is, you need to speak to a therapist. You can't call me every weekend, every day if you have a problem. Mm-hmm. That's not my job.

And I think the beauty

Jessi: of using a therapist, using a psychiatrist is money. I find that money is actually a really beautiful boundary, and I've even, even from a business perspective, I really started to use that very strongly, um, which has been a big journey for me. Um, but as sensitive as Empass, we tend to really live in that nonprofit world.

Like that mindset. I call it the nonprofit mindset, where it's like, whether you're running a business or not, you act like a nonprofit where you're like, anyone that needs help, anyone that's vulnerable, anyone that's hurting, I can't, this is really what it's, I can't bear to watch you be hurt because then it hurts me because I.

Leaning too much. I'm merging with you, so I'm in pain, so I need to solve your pain so that we're both out of pain. Right. That's really what it is. Totally, totally. But, uh, there's just this, you know, I'm free. Like, oh, well if I'm not physically doing something right now, if I don't have something on my calendar blocked out, then I guess I'm available.

Right? But when you have someone that's a professional and you have to pay to see them, like that person is gonna really consider, do I actually want to utilize this time? But if you're free, it's just, there's this lack of. Inhibition. Like someone will just kind of use up your time with no awareness.

Mm-hmm. And no, and I, I wanna say that it's half the time it's unconscious. They don't, they're not thinking about it. But when there's money involved, they, because most people that's a high value, they will, it's like this, all of a sudden it's in their awareness of like, oh, I'm using this much time to talk about this issue.

When money's not there, they're not thinking about that. They're just vomiting on you. Right, totally. So it's helpful to redirect them to someone that will bring that to their awareness, um, with the tool of money.

Raven: And there are social workers who, depending on they have a scale system. I was very lucky.

That's true. The therapist I found, she was a social worker and she only charged me $20 a session because I had the horse business and I was broke because they were all eating hay and I was eating hot dogs and they ate better than me, but I still am. Invest of the time. It was the parameters. Like, okay, I'm giving her like, that's a lot of money for me right now.

Mm-hmm. And plus, I know I only have an hour with her, so I was getting this beautiful visual as you were talking about that, that when someone's paying, it's like the therapist, social worker is reaching outta hand and pulling them up a step. Mm-hmm. Versus that free exchange's actually keeping that person in that like little cyclone whirlpool stuck down here because why would they ever get out?

It feels really good to complain about. It feels really good to talk about it. Yeah. It gives them that dopamine that they're being heard, but that's very good. Now they've grabbed you down into the spiral cyclone and now you're both drowning. Yep.

Jessi: Oh, that's such a good imagery. I love that. I love that.

It's so true. And to go to your point too, it's like. It's not about how much money, it's just, it could be a dollar. You know, like, it's just, it's literally that using money to be that awareness factor. And I use that in my health business as well. And, um, it's, it's not about the quantity, it's about the fact that it's even happening.

It's an energy exchange and there's something really powerful about saying this is like, I am worthy of this 25 cents, whatever it is, you know, it doesn't have to be a ton of money, but I am worthy of this. And also, oh, I, you know, this is, I'm gonna be conscious of this time now and be conscious of this person because this is something that needs to be done in this kind of setting where I do have to contribute.

Yeah. You

Raven: know, I love that. And one other thought on the free thing, Hmm. Is nothing's ever free, especially for you who is the giver? You're actually paying out your energy and God, that's like way more valuable than money. Like your, your energy's getting sucked and you. If you're not available for, let's say you're on the phone with this person who's draining you or, or you're in a relationship with someone who's constantly draining you, waking up in the middle of the night like horrible narcissists do and like creating conflict, you then don't have the capacity to be your highest self for yourself, for your job, especially for your kids.

And they deserve that No matter, no matter what they deserve, that you give them their all. Cuz there's just such a short time, a window for that.

Jessi: Yeah. It's value systems too. Like what, what are your top values? It's if you know that, if you know I'm, you know, these three things are what I'm here for.

Anything outside of that you, you be cautious with. You really evaluate if it's something that you wanna give your time and energy to. Yeah. So, and

Raven: it doesn't make you a bad person. Like I question myself as I'm putting these boundaries up. It doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you a jerk. You can still be kind and send them love and light and actual warm wishes with boundaries.

But I have a job I've gotta work on. I have a husband, like I have a, whatever it is that you prioritizing that's important to you, that always comes first. And if that person is pushing those boundaries, you just with love and light, you know? Yeah. I can't, can't field your calls all the time. Yeah. And

Jessi: I think one other thing that we can talk real quick about too is, um, I've seen a lot of, and I've seen this in my own life, first and foremost, and then with others, is this like, well, if the person isn't a narcissist, if there aren't any red flags, they're like a beautiful soul and a beautiful person.

But I feel that obligation that you were just discussing, I feel like they're using my time not out of meanness. Like they're a, a wonderful person. In fact, I even admire them for some things. Yeah. Even there. It can still not be a match.

Raven: Right? Yeah. And we all have a bit of narcissistic traits in us Mm.

Unconsciously that we're doing. It's called our ego. And if we're being unconscious about it, because we're struggling with something, maybe you're struggling with, uh, or that person struggling with whatever their soul's struggle is, right? Mm-hmm. Like then they want, they wanna seek help. And if you're an easy help, right?

It's like all of us humans will choose the path of lease resistance. Yeah. So if you are the path of lease resistance, they will always call you again. But what, at what cost? And Yeah. They don't have to be narcissist. Mm-hmm. They absolutely just can be someone who need, who is needy. Mm-hmm. And but you need to guide them to the proper person Yeah.

To help them with their neediness.

Jessi: What would that conversation look like? Like how could you give us a little script act? Like if I was there I was, you know, some, some girl you met at some event and you're like, wow, we both really, and we jived right off the bat. You know, we had this great conversation.

We seemed like we were on the same page. Then suddenly I'm kind of saying, Hey Raven, uh, let's get coffee and I wanna get coffee. Like, can we get coffee like once a week? Can we like hang out for like, and then every time we get together it's like a three hour conversation cuz we're deep souls. Right?

Raven: Of course.

They would never give you that disclaimer. It would just be like, wanna grab us some coffee? Yeah. They would never, ever be like, oh, let's do this again and once a week, let's sit here for three hours. That's something that you have to like pick up on the non-verbal. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you won't be even be able to pick it up on the non-verbal.

It just will happen. It'll happen. And then, so here's the lesson is the first time it happens and they're just going on and on. And you start to feel like, okay, I gotta go now. Like I gotta go now. Like I have other things I need to do. And they're just, oh my gosh, and did you da that? And they keep talking, oh my, I'd just love to talk to you.

I wanna talk to you all day long. It's like red flag. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's the conversation where, of course you're, you're a human, you're an empath. You're gonna go on the first coffee. I'm not gonna say don't go on the first coffee. Yeah. Because that might be a beautiful relationship with two mutually healthy people.

You just never know. So that's the one part is like, be open still. But with like the breaks on in first gear, not fifth gear, like us and past, like to do stay in first gear, we're besties in 30 minutes. That's another red flag. Besties in 30 minutes. I mean, you can feel a connection like we do, like we're having fun, we're talking, but I mean, we're both not saying like, oh my gosh, like, let's get together and let's talk for hours.

And oh my gosh, we're besties now. Like there's, there's a fine line between. Respect, professionality. You know, it depends also where you're meeting them. If you're meeting 'em, I guess in a bar it's more casual. Mm-hmm. Um, if you're meeting them, like say for instance on a podcast or at work, there's some professional boundaries there that you just can't cross.

Like, so first step is knowing what your boundaries are. Hmm. Because that way you know what you'll allow to cross and what you want. Um, so the conversation would go, let's say at, at the end, oh my gosh, this was so lovely. I need to go pick up my kids. Just make some excuse up if you don't have to, but you need to get out.

Or if you don't have kids, you're like, oh, I have a deadline and I really need to get some work done. And it was so, it was so really, so nice and lovely meeting with you. I'll call you Right. And then kind of put the ball in your court and then it's okay if you don't call them for a couple weeks. I think that's healthy.

But they will feel like if, again, if they're unhealthy and they're codependent, they will call you and reach out and you can. If you feel your gut drop already, you don't have to feel the call. If you feel brave, go ahead, field the call and say, I'm really busy. I'm so sorry I can't talk. You know, let's try next week.

Um, and if it just kind of perpetuates, then that's when you're gonna have to put up some boundaries and say, you know, it, it's, I've really enjoyed our conversation the other day. I really wish you so much love and light, but I really have to focus right now on my work and my family. And you can leave it at that.

You don't need to get any more specific. They should be able to receive that cue. And if not, you've already spoken to them about where your energies are now. Like really gonna prioritize and if they start to like blow up your text thread, right? That's what ego loves to do is freak out and like send you 10 texts.

Uh, don't reply. Just take your time, walk away. Take a deep breath. I would say go meditate cuz that's gonna give you your soul's message. You need to give them and say, I really wish you well. This is just taking up a lot of my time right now. Or I, I don't know, you could, that sounds harsh, right? The impact you're like, I wouldn't say that.

Um, I would say, you know, this, um, I just really need to focus on Yeah. Blank right now. Mm-hmm. And I'll get back to you when, um, you know, when I'd love to reconnect. And that way it kind of gives you the power. It's got your boundaries. I mean, just think of it as a salesperson outside your door. You close the door, say, thank you so much, I'm not interested.

Close the door. Right? Yeah. So lean, I'm not an interest part in that relationship, is I'm really focusing on this right now. And you close the door with love and light. You're not mad. I mean, of course you'll be a little bit peeved because you feel like you put yourself in that situation, right? You're gonna start blaming yourself, but.

Always, always, if you can with love and light, because then you won't feel bad or guilty that you've put that boundary up. Mm-hmm. You know, and it's, it's their journey and it's their struggle.

Jessi: Yeah. We're not responsible for their reaction. That's the hardest one. No,

Raven: that's the hardest one. Yeah. And that's where that don't give a shit kind of comes in like that helped me because I'd always be like, well, what if they say this?

Or what if they feel this and oh my gosh. Like they're gonna be so devastated. Like they'll probably just move on and find another easy path of least resistance. Honestly, that's a bit of your ego thinking that you're the only one that can save them.

Jessi: Ooh, so good. Yes. Thank you for that reminder. Mm-hmm.

Yep,

Raven: yep, yep. I been reminded multiple times and I can't take credit for that one. My husband's always telling me that he like, you know, you can't save them. You know, that's kind of arrogant of you a thing that you can save them. Yeah. Yeah.

Jessi: Well, Raven, this is so powerful. Thank you for sharing and just opening up.

Are there any resources that you would, uh, send someone that's listening where this is kind of a new idea to them or someone that is progressing through that healing journey, coming out of a narcissist relationship or even just codependency? Are there people? Obviously your book

Raven: is a wonderful resource and reach out to me.

Um, I will share with you the link to where you can sign up to receive my, the audible version of my book for free right now for, I have a limited amount of copies that I'm sharing. Yes. The free copy of my book. That's really gonna get you started because it is how to overcome gaslighting. ed, I weave my story and education about narcissism, about codependency.

And the manipulation. And as well as at the end of each chapter, I have a spiritual exercise I weave in human design and astrology. And at the very last chapter, I have like a human design 1 0 1 chapter. So

Jessi: amazing. Yeah. Oh, it's so many tools.

Raven: So many tools. So that's on Amazon, and if you want to listen to the free copy, um, click the link in the show notes to get that.

Um, yeah, just fill in your email and then I'll send you a personal code through an email. Perfect.

Jessi: Yeah. Okay. I have one last question. I always ask my guest. It's kind of a fun off the wall, but it gives us kind of another angle perspective of who you are. If you were a plant, so a flower, an herb, a tree, which one would capture your essence?

Raven: Oh, I haven't really thought of that, but immediately, I don't even know if it's the right name. You know those purple flowers? I think it's the iris. Mm-hmm. Is

Jessi: that, I just thoughted that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I visualized that when you said the purple flower.

Raven: Mm-hmm. Purple. Oh my gosh. But that's it. That's, mm-hmm.

That's my soul flower.

Jessi: You love that, that, oh,

Raven: that's cool. I could see that. I love that question. Oh, well, I, I definitely consider myself a plant witch. I love plants. You consider

Jessi: yourself a plant.

Raven: A plant witch. A plant. Oh, a plant witch.

Jessi: Like I'm absolutely a plant

Raven: in my next life. Please. Maybe a plant.

Jessi: That'd be a nice life. Much. Yeah. Much more simple, much less complex. Oh, well, thank you so much for sharing, Raven. I appreciate it. And just for the final one, like where can people follow you? Talk to us about your podcast, your social media, how can they connect with you? Yeah.

Raven: My website is Raven scott.show and anywhere you can find me and to connect with me is there.

I love to be on Instagram. My podcast is called Empath and the Narcissist. My handle on Instagram is Raven Scott Show, and I just joined TikTok, so if you wanna find me on TikTok, Raven scott.show over there. Nice. Thanks. Dragging my feet joining TikTok. I feel like an old lady.

Jessi: Oh no, you're, you're gonna be great at it.

I feel like generators are like made for TikTok. That's perfect. Probably. Yes. Yes. Put all your energy there. Yes. Oh, well thank you Raven. It was such an honor to have you on today.

Raven: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure talking with you.

Jessi: Hey there. Before you go, let me ask you two quick questions. Are you honoring your natural sensitivity with your current choices? Are you feeling like your healthiest, most authentic self and body? If you answered no to one or both of those questions, I highly recommend trying out my method. It'll get you started. Or you're welcome to work with me one-on-one if you need to address Deeper health imbalances. If you loved this episode, please leave us a review or share it with someone you care about. Your support means the world to us and keeps us going. We wish you all the love and care. À votre santé, my friend.

Connect with Raven

• Raven’s Website

• @ravenscottshow on Instagram

• @ravenscott.show on TikTok

• Empath and The Narcissist Podcast

Links Mentioned

• Empath and The Narcissist Book

• Empath and The Narcissist Audio Book

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Natural Sensitive Resources Below:

• Authentic Calm, the podcast

• Mêrfleur Natural Living Recos, for Sensitive-safe products

• Merfleur Library, books to listen to or read

• Merfleur Wellness, to rebuild your calm and resiliency for sustainable health

  • See the Authentic Calm Method for self-care

  • See 1:1 Care for private support from Jessi